Legislating bigotry :: Dustin Lance Black & Reed Cowan on '8: The Mormon Proposition'

While to some it may feel like a piece that is a part the past, the unpleasant memories of the passing of Proposition 8 in California in November, 2008 are alive and well in the gay community not only in The Golden State but everywhere in the United States. How did Prop 8 pass when California is seen as such a progressive state with huge gay populations in major cities like Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco? What can we do make sure we all finally can obtain the right to marry and have equal civil rights?

One documentary film, 8: The Mormon Proposition (which opens this Friday in cities across the country), answers a lot of those questions by laying out factual documents on how the Mormons methodically and cunningly went about creating a quiet army of disciples that would unquestioningly make sure people would vote Yes on 8. The film doesn't only provide a history lesson and point fingers at the Mormons but also provides some direction as to how this action can never - and hopefully will never - happen again.

8: The Mormon Proposition director Reed Cowan was able to get gay rights activist/Hollywood screenwriter/director Dustin Lance Black to come on board and narrate the film and, with their Mormon backgrounds, they are able to give a deeper perspective on why the Mormons can't just live in harmony with the LGBT community. The two men talked with EDGE's Jim Halterman about the journey of making this film, their surprise (or lack thereof) when they found out exactly how the Mormons went about getting Prop 8 passed and what the film says to not just the LGBT community but to everyone who wants to see gay civil rights someday be a guaranteed right.

The Mormon connection

EDGE: Can you talk about how the process of making this film started for you, Reed?

Reed Cowan: One of the reasons that Dustin and I are friends is because we both knew what is was like to be 14 or 15 and sitting in a Mormon church where homosexuality was likened to murder. This film really comes from the soul, it comes from spirit and from a place of wanting better for young people like he and I were. The first manifestation of the film was that I wanted to tell a story of young homeless kids in Salt Lake who were kicked out after coming out by otherwise loving parents who loved their kids but were so horrified when their kids came out that they'd kick them out in the dead of winter. We knew that Utah has one of the highest populations of gay teens on the street and one of the highest populations of teen suicide. At the same time, Proposition 8 was percolating and we were seeing that Mormons were getting involved and not just in a small way but a major way. Not even in California but Mormons all over the country getting involved in California politics. The real problem is what? Bigotry spoken from the pulpit. It's damaging to people. What are the manifestations? Homelessness, teen suicide, broken up families. What is the manifestation of it all? Proposition 8. So that was the beginning of it all.

EDGE: And how did you get involved, Lance?

Dustin Lance Black: I started getting emails from Reed, who I had never met but I had done interview stuff with him for Milk (the Sean Penn/James Franco film that Black won the Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay). He started sending me Quicktime clips of this documentary he was putting together and wanted to know if I could help. It became clear quickly that he had documents and interviews with and from the Mormon Church that I don't think had been seen before. A lot of us in California knew this was the strategy and the coalition but I don't think we had the proof and I was really impressed that he was able to do this and put it together. It wasn't just an accusation of the Mormon Church about gay people but actually the words and documents of the Mormon Church itself really for the first time pointing the finger at who was at fault for what went down on Proposition 8 in California. So I wrote back, 'What can I do to help?'

The documents

EDGE: How did you these Mormon documents come into your hands?

RC: I had seen some of them but not all of them because we had interviewed Fred Carter, who is in the film. That edited wave of documents came into my hands early on. We were planning on going to San Francisco to interview Gavin Newsom and Dennis Herrera, the San Francisco City Attorney. Then I got a Facebook message from, of all people, the young man who actually is gay and worked in the church organization and took the documents and he said 'I'm the guy!' I said, 'How fast can you get to San Francisco because we're wrapping our shoot and I can only fit you in one small hour?' He was there the next day and, ironically enough, we talked to him off-camera in [the office of] Dennis Herrera, who is part of the Federal trial right now. Dennis started looking in the documents and there was that 'Whoa!' moment. Within three weeks, a messenger picked up those documents and they ended up a part of the Federal trial and they also, from what I understand, were the catalysts of a subpoena for more documents from the Mormon Church. It was very interesting conversation to hear what the Mormon church archives has and what they collect for their internal studies - things like The Advocate so they can read up on gay people.

EDGE: With each of you having a Mormon background, were you surprised by what you saw in these documents?

DLB: I wasn't surprised. I grew up in the Mormon Church. I know that it's an incredibly organized institution. One of the things I love and miss about being a Mormon is when the Church sets out to do something they always say 'If you're going to do it, do it right.' They really, really go after it and they organize, the membership is very loyal. When I knew they were involved before the election when we started to hear whispers about it, I thought 'Oh Boy, if they're asking members to get involved, this is big.' I don't think most non-Mormons people understand how big it is but when the Prophet of the Church says this is what you need to do, the entire membership listens and they do it 100%. They give 100% financially, physically of their time. We just didn't have the proof.

RC: I was surprised at how cavalier they were. One line in the documents that really gets me in the heart is 'The Babel has begun!' That's pretty cavalier when you're talking about lives, right? That surprised me. I knew from growing up that Mormons are the organization of Kings and Queens - mostly Kings - they know how to organize an effort better than anything whether it's a bake sale, church function or a political campaign. I knew that but what I didn't understand and what I was most horrified by is how cavalier they were with lives...lives like mine.

EDGE: Talk to me about the money that the film documents was coming in and people were just giving, giving and then giving more. Was that surprising? Does it really come down to who has more money?

RC: It wasn't. When you grow up in the Mormon Church and you've been through the very sacred Mormon ceremony, I wasn't surprised. Mormons go in those temples to perform secret ceremonies and some of those ceremonies are promises that you make to God. One of the promises is that you will give your means and time when called upon by your prophet. What that means is anything in your bank account at any time you will give when called upon and if you don't your salvation and the salvation of your family and children is obliterated. So when Mormons use the phrase 'means and time' it was code language that the rest of the world missed. Was I surprised by the money? Heavens no because I know the seriousness of those covenants. These covenants you are told "For God will not be mocked and ye will burn in eternal hell if you don't keep these promises."

DLB: Of course, money has a lot to do with it but it's not always that way. I think what the documents also do is clearly define what their strategy was. It was personally very frustrating for me to watch the No On 8 campaign here in California. It was done horribly and as we were watching footage in this film, watch this man brilliantly battle these very same messages. The Mormons basically revived the messages of Anita Bryant. It was a 'Save The Children' campaign. They did it in every State. They had a lot of money to put that out there. We actually ended up raising more money but we weren't straightforward in combating that message. Hopefully, this documentary will be another piece of what's out there saying 'Hey, this is their strategy and their message and you'd better be straight forward and come out of the closet and make it clear what your relationship is really about and dispel those stereotypes.' Otherwise, the 'Save The Children' campaign and all those horrible stereotypes are going to continue to work.'

Gays don’t fit in

EDGE: One of the things brought up in the movie is that 'gays interrupt the Mormon plan for heaven.' Can you explain that?

DLB: I think gay and lesbian families don't fit into the Mormon idea of what this life means and what the next life means. For Mormon people, they believe this life is to get married, start a family that will eventually become your eternal family. In a sense, once you have a Mormon temple marriage you have your own planet, your own spiritual family and your own planet and you create your own spiritual babies and you send them down to their new planet, which they populate. This is a cycle that continues and continues and continues. To them, it's about creating future families whose end goal is procreation and that's what they think this planet is - a God in heaven that is creating souls and sending them down here. If you have relationships which they see as relationships that can't naturally procreate then that disrupts their whole design as to why we're here on this planet. Two men, they believe, can never populate a future planet in heaven so they must not be heavenly creatures. They must not be a divine relationship.

EDGE: Assuming you have one, what relationship do you still have with the Mormon Church or people who are in the Mormon Church?

RC: Most of the relationships are severed but there is one I am thankful for - [former Utah Governor] Jon Huntsman and Mary Kaye Huntsman. They were recently appointed the Ambassadors to China by President Obama and they've been very supportive of me. They're indicative of the Mormons who get it and who are supporters so there is progress.

DLB: I am not an active member in the Mormon Church but half of my family is active in the Mormon Church. I spend a lot of my time in Salt Lake City these days and I have a lot of friends I work with politically and socially as friends who are Mormons. It's shockingly close and I'd like to keep it that way. There is a dialogue to be had. I personally believe that many if not most Mormon people are not homophobic. I think the leadership of the Church is incredibly homophobic. I don't want to break down those bridges in the Mormon community because I want to keep that dialogue open.

EDGE: What do you hope people take from the movie?

RC: That it's not a gay movie. It's a movie for voters. If we value a democracy and not a theocracy then we need to say 'never again.' Voters have the right to know who is pulling the strings, who is influencing the election three months before they cast their very sacred vote and not three months after when a documentary filmmaker starts to dig.

DLB: I think the message of the film is that we do have to speak up. We do have to come out and we do have to act. It's the lesson that was learned from Prop 8. The good thing about Prop 8 is that it's motivated an entire new generation of LGBT activists who felt that in their bones. They didn't have to see a movie about Harvey Milk to know you had to step up and come out. They just started doing it with Prop 8. What I think this movie does is help focus all the energy of the activists on who it should be focused on which is this organization that the Mormon Church is leading and financing.

For more on 8: The Mormon Proposition, go to http://www.mormonproposition.com/. The film will be in theaters beginning Friday and will also be available on DVD on July 13th.